Culture and Consciousness
1. On page 232 in BNW Mustapha Mond explains that there is no need for religion if one is not afraid of death. What is his reasoning? Do you agree?
2. In Huxley’s foreword to BNW, he states that, “If I were now to rewrite the book, I would offer the Savage a third alternative. Between the utopian and the primitive horns of his dilemma would lie the possibility of sanity—a possibility already actualized, to some extent, in a community of exiles and refugees from the Brave New World, living within the borders of the Reservation” (ix). Describe in more detail what this third alternative could look like within the context of the novel.
3. As Huxley describes this third alternative, he states that the society would operate by the Final End Principle. See page x. What is the Final End Principle? Is it possible to truly operate in this fashion?
4. What makes people like Bernard and Helmholtz different from the others in BNW? What do you think triggers them to start thinking about their world in a different way?
5. Mustapha Mond chose to become a World Controller over going to an island of exiles with others like him. What factors did he have to consider in his choice? Do choices like this exist in our society/world? How does Mustapha Mond explain the origin of the World State?
6. What are the connection between the Bafa Bafa simulation we did earlier in the year to John’s experience in the World State, and the people of the World State’s experience in the Savage Reservation (or what they know about the history of the world)?
21 comments:
One thing that really surprised me in the silent discussion was the complete positive connotation that was put on to the purpose of religion in our world. I agree that it has its many positives but no one seemed to mention the bad things that have come from religious conflicts. Throughout our history there have been many deadly and bloody conflicts that have come from disagreeing on certain religious topics. Religious conflicts have affected all of our lives whether we like it or not. I feel that it would be interesting to discuss this topic. On top of that, everyone seemed to agree that the world is in need of religion and the fear of death. Maddie said this in very meaningful terms. She said “without religion or fear of death, the world cannot know sympathy, mercy, or kindness.” I agree with this and the rest of the group members. By having the power to fear death, we can more greatly appreciate our lives. I feel that in BRave New World, since there is no fear of death, the citizens do not know how to react to pain or sorrow. Even when they see death they can’t react because they just take their soma when they are experiencing unhappy thoughts. But what happens when they have no soma to mask their emotions? This is shown when Lenina was at the reservation and saw the aged men and women. Her reaction was very interesting because it was the first time she saw the effects of age and even death. This appears in the text from pages 113-116 “Hideously masked or painted out of all semblance of humanity...........She shuddered ‘Oh I wish I had my soma!’”. During this time Lenina witnessed something she had never really had to face before. She saw someone dying and there was nothing she could do to comfort herself. She had no soma, all she had were her tears to let out the pain and agony she felt as she saw this occur. Death is a very real thing. Even if we think we don’t fear it, it still bothers us. Religion is like our soma. It comforts us through tough times and it makes us happy again.
In response to question one what stood out to me from my silent dialogue responses was that the others who responded took this question in a different direction. They linked religion and death together in that religion removes the fear of death. I was surprised though at the idea that, when they remove the fear of death they are just eliminating a fear not removing the thoughts of religion. I liked this idea because it is showing BNW’s way of trying to cover up something that can never be eliminated. The idea that religion could be a good thing or bad thing depending on the person was something that stood out because it presents that idea that the people in BNW should have the choice to be religious because it could help them and those who choose not to could simply be conditioned. In BNW John found peace and hope through the religion. He used the idea of God and Christ to get him thought tough times at the reservation and in the lighthouse in the World State. In the last chapter John inhabited the lighthouse because he wanted to be alone and wanted to get away, the first thing he did was pray and be religious because that was what helped him, whereas lenina would just take soma to fix her problems and help her. “He spent the hours on his knees praying, now to that Heaven from which the guilty Claudius had begged forgiveness, now in Zuñi to Awonawilona, now to Jesus and Pookong, now to his own guardian animal, the eagle. From time to time he stretched out his arms as though he were on the Cross,” (Huxley 244). Religion and death can be connected but aren’t in many ways. Mond doesn’t want people to be afraid of death because he doesn’t want them to be fearful of things and doesn’t want them to think of the after life and antoher source of power. They use Ford as their “God” because they can control what his powers are and what the people think, but with other religions they can’t be controlled and would lead to instability.
I found it interesting that although Dave and I disagreed on our personal reasons for clinging to religion, we do agree religion both guides and connects us. He brought up another point I had not previously considered. I stated in Task A that without tragedy, confusion, injustice or fear of death, religion would be non-existence. Mond says on page 233, "We feel the need to lean on something that abides, something that will never play us false...an everlasting truth." The quote led me to say the BNW can't grasp religion because everything is already stable, which I believe is negative. Dave believes the quote suggests the lack of religion in the BNW society is a good thing because it means much of the turmoil in our society has been eliminated. This disagreement leads me several questions. First, does the presence of religion in ones life correlate with the presence of suffering? Could turmoil, passion and religion combined be enough to "cancel out" our the issue of social vices? And lastly, as Mond's quote on page 234 ("God isn't compatible with machinery and scientific medicine and universal happiness") suggests, if our deadly diseases were cured, families stayed together, and we were increasingly promiscuous (more likely situations than those of BNW), would less people turn to religion? Would we need religion at all? Would people even realize that truth does not shift with our needs?
I would further like to discuss some of the less obvious ways that Helmholtz and Bernard are different from the World State. In addition, I would like to elaborate upon what other ways that Helmholtz and Bernard think about their world and especially the results of this thinking-whether it was good or bad that Bernard decided to bring John to the World State from the Reservation and whether they have succeeded or failed in their fight against the society by going to the islands.
1) I responded to the first question in the “Culture & Consciousness” section of the handout that asked about Mustapha Mond’s reasoning behind his claim that “it is the fear of death and of what comes after death that makes men turn to religion as they advance in years” (232). This theory led me to think that religion held a more negative connotation. People resort to religion when they cannot accept responsibility of their own fate. In my silent dialogue, Becca wrote that “fear in general or the inability to fulfill [one’s] impulses along with death was the real reason people turn to God. [Mustapha] believes that taking away the problems that lead to the necessity of religion will guarantee a more stable society”. The fact that religion can even be seen as a “necessity” suggests that there is some degree of dependency on it. What is it that makes people “need” to hand their sins and mishaps to something else? Religion is ultimately a source of comfort. By sharing our sufferings we are able to “redeem” ourselves and have the ability to start new. Religion promises a realm of possibilities and people like to think that they are entitled to these possibilities. However, doesn’t this create a false sense of security? Even so, do the good things that religion brings outweigh the “bads”? To bring back Becca’s point, if there are no mishaps to fear and no reason to sin, then what purpose does religion have to serve?
In the silent dialogue, I discussed the topic of Culture and Consciousness. I answered the question about Mustapha Mond’s reason for why no one needs religion. I agreed with him, saying that the only reason for religion would be to answer questions about the afterlife and to keep them “in line” during their lives, for fear that their after lives would be bad. In the movie Gattaca religion also does not seem to play a big role in people’s lives. This is because they are controlled mostly by genetics, so people know when they will die, and have less fear of the afterlife. What most stood out to me from the silent discussion was that many people figured that although these are the reasons for religion, people need religion to make them better. It made me realize that I had a “to the point”, cynical view of religion. The reasons why religions are in existence is irrelevant in the end, as long that religion betters the individual. I still stand by my original statement of why religions really exist. I do not think they are bad however; as many religions can give people better morals and values.
In the silent dialogue, I discussed the topic of Culture and Consciousness. I answered the question about Mustapha Mond’s reason for why no one needs religion. I agreed with him, saying that the only reason for religion would be to answer questions about the afterlife and to keep them “in line” during their lives, for fear that their after lives would be bad. In the movie Gattaca religion also does not seem to play a big role in people’s lives. This is because they are controlled mostly by genetics, so people know when they will die, and have less fear of the afterlife. What most stood out to me from the silent discussion was that many people figured that although these are the reasons for religion, people need religion to make them better. It made me realize that I had a “to the point”, cynical view of religion. The reasons why religions are in existence is irrelevant in the end, as long that religion betters the individual. I still stand by my original statement of why religions really exist. I do not think they are bad however; as many religions can give people better morals and values.
One thing that surprised me when reading the responses to my answer for number 4 was how many of us saw so easily that our world is flawed. In BNW, people like Bernard and Helmholtz were unique individuals in their society because they were different from everyone else around them, whether they were under or over developed. Because they are separated by their flaws they are able to see beyond what the BNW sets up for them to see, and for them, it is easier to see what is truly happening to the people and things in their world. They begin to see the truth of their society and start to question the things that other people in BNW take for granted in their everyday lives. People in BNW were conditioned so as not to recognize problems. In BNW, when faced with people like Bernard who do not conform “as they should” the Director says, “But that is all the more reason for their making a special effort to conform. It is their duty to be infantile, even against their inclination. And so, Mr. Marx, I give you fair warning” (pg 98). When Bernard and Helmholtz start seeing the truth and flaws of their society, governmental leaders like Mond or the Director get really frustrated with them and wish to send them away. Similarly, we are conditioned to see flaws, so that’s makes it easier for us to find the faults in BNW. In result, pointing out the differences between everything is considered a norm. We have things like media and laws that help us point out a problem, and the way to fix the problem is to have it recognized by people. As much as I would like to believe that we live in a society that is as perfect as we can get without the government going to extremes, like in BNW, the reality is that there is no such thing as a perfect society. By reading BNW, it has become easier to see the fault in our own society. Which leads me to wonder, if seeing flaws and fault is conditioned in our own lives so that it is a norm for us, what other norms that we live with are just a result of conditioning that we’ve had since a child? Has our conditioning only occurred during our youth or are we still being conditioned even into our old age? And, is this conditioning a problem, or is it something we should leave unquestioned and alone?
It shocked me to see how tightly religion is connected to death. I agreed with Ethan through silent discussion that we all ask the question “why” when someone dies and we believe that the only one who can answer that question is God. But I also believe that we turn to religion because we are so lonely. When loved ones pass away, we do not know how to control the emptiness that we feel and search for a solace. We fear to loose someone because we are worried of how we are going to live without the loved one. In page 207, Savage explains, “Oh God, God, God…the Savage kept repeating to himself. In the chaos of grief and remorse that filled his mind it was the one articulate word. “God!”” after Linda died. When Linda died, first thing Savage looked for was God. The quote illustrates how when something big happens in our life, one searches for God or a religion. The people in BNW live in world where they do not fear death. After Linda passes away, Nurses explains while looking at Savage who is sobbing, “[…] as though death were something terrible, as though any one mattered as much as all that!” (206). To BNW society, death does not matter to a society and to an individual. Through silent discussion, we all agreed that religion would not be as important if one was not afraid of death but I think there is more to a religion than just death. If the ultimate purpose of a religion is death, then I wonder if there is even a purpose in a religion.
Believing that religion is only helpful in a time of need is why the BNW society doesn’t need it. We turn to God when we have troubles, worries, or fears. The people in Brave New World have none of these things. They are also not afraid of death, which would bring on fearful or worrisome emotions.
This theory Mustapha Mond has come up with has some sense to it. Believing in a religion means having faith—faith that there is something more extraordinary in this universe than anybody on Earth can imagine. A higher power like that can make people skeptical because it seems too amazing to be real. There are no scientific facts that God created the world in less than a week, and this makes the power of religion hard to grasp. If we are conditioned to deal with death, and we are always happy, then I agree with Mond that there is no need for God. Two things promised to every person are life and death—and death is always the worst possible outcome. We are not afraid of life, and if we can be conditioned to not be afraid of death, all outcomes will remain positive, and there may not be a strong urge or need to turn to God.
In response to Cynhia’s post, whether or not you see religion in a negative light and as a false sense of security versus a positive necessity will depend on whether or not you believe in a religion. However, I think we can see a lot of benefits to religion in society. It makes people “better” and more moral people and is often the driving force behind campaigns to help those in need and improve situations. Huxley shows us a world without religion, and seeing what that world has become, I believe he is trying to show us that we need religion, in his opinion. There are a few reasons that the people in BNW do not need religion. They don’t fear death and don’t think about the possibility of an afterlife, they don’t face problems or hardship, and they are conditioned to not think about anything outside of themselves, being productive, and the way the society works. The people in BNW would find no need for religion and wouldn’t be able to understand it. However, we live in a world that faces all these problems and Huxley’s point was that we do need it.
In response to Scott's post, I completely agree with your shock as a response to your silent dialog (as I brought up in the discussion). I believe religion is not always necessarily a good thing because it can cause conflict due to clashing morals, etc. This is harmful to our society and even filters into our politics. However, I do believe that one must have some experience with religion to shape their lives. It can either help them, as we said by answering the "tough questions" or it can lead them to decide they do not want to follow a single religion and believe in their own ideas. However, they to have an experience before they can decide whether to follow religion or rebel against it. I believe this is what makes people different in society. People need to believe in something.
As our class has been able to see and recognize in various situations, when entering a new “culture” or a society with different ideals and customs, you have to give it time and be willing to work with the others in the new society you are in. As we realized in the beginning of school with the Bafa Bafa simulation it is not easy to learn about or become accustomed to a new society quickly even if it is completely necessary. Later in the year we began to read and learn about the various societies in Brave New World. In BNW there were two completely opposite communities, BNW and the Reservation, and when people went and visited or lived within the other society for a period of time they had a lot of trouble adjusting to the new situation. For instance, when Lenina and Bernard first went to visit the Reservation Lenina was so repulsed by the Reservation that she essentially overdosed on soma to relieve all “craziness” she was experiencing. When John went back to Brave New World with Bernard and Lenina he had to learn about what to think and how to act there. John had a very hard time adjusting to BNW but he didn’t have the soma like Lenina did to make it all better. Also, like we saw in Bafa Bafa when you went to try and figure out the other culture it was nearly impossible because in some cases the other people weren’t very helpful or nice. Like our class experienced in Bafa Bafa, John wasn’t given instructions and he had to learn from his mistakes, like when he brought up the story of Romeo and Juliet and Helmholtz just laughed at what he was saying, he didn’t know how to act or what to talk about in BNW because like us in Bafa he was never taught how the society was supposed to actually run. Through both of these experiences I was able to see and experience how it is to change your way of life and your ideals in fiction or in real life situations.
I completely agree with Haley's comment about the fact that Huxley is trying to show his readers that they do need religion. It is important to keep in mind that this book was written during the roaring 20s. America "came out of her shell" in a bigger way then ever before. The publicizing of sexuality and promiscuity in general signified a loss of morals and therefore loss of interest in religion to critics. The extreme end of the scale that Huxley describes in BNW shows the reader that it isn’t possible to be moral (therefore “good”) and so sexually open at the same time.
Lindsay said that the people of BNW don't need religion because they don't have "troubles, worries, or fears". She also stated that religion means having a faith which isn't always necessary - I believe that having a faith and something to believe in is what keeps people going. If people just keep going on with their lives because that is what they are conditioned to do then no day is better than the next. I believe that with the unpredictability of the modern world religion allows ups and downs. The drive of no expiration date allows people to live their daily lives to the fullest and not sit back and think that it would be pointless to try to succeed. The different beliefs people have in the modern world allow people to see flaws in the other person and work off the other person to become a stronger person themselves. Without religion, everyone would walk around the same and be stuck in a rut with no room to grow.
I believe that Casey's post brought up some interesting ideas about religion, especially her question about whether we would even realize that truth does not shift with our needs. I think that we have to look at the questions about religion from the stand point of the author, who is satirizing the idea of a society that is so controlled and emotionless and predictable that there is no need for religion. I see the author lumping religion with things like culture and great literature, things that require people to think and to question what is important and what man's place is in the universe. I think Mond is well aware that the controlled society in BNW means that all of these things must be sacrificed. And I think that the author is making the point that mankind is menat to wonder about the mysteries of the world, and that there are no black or white answers for many of the most important questions in life. Religion does not have the "answers" to these questions, but religious scholars are dedicated to discussing them and figuring out how we can live the best lives possible within these mysteries.
In response to Scott's comment about how religion has created many conflicts, I have a question to raise about that. Would it not be better for people to war over what they believe in, rather than for greed, money and land? I think it is within human nature to fight, but making religious conflicts a negative of religion itself may be overstepping the mark a bit. Humans have always fought over things, there have been genocides of all kinds of people, some to do with religion, some to do with race or looks. With or without religion, conflicts will happen. So I find that making a negative of religion due to the conflicts that come of it are false. I do agree that religion does have it's downfalls, but humans need a belief system to keep everyone honest. Everyone can see the destruction that can be held within everyone, and religion can be a way to vent that bad, into something good.
I agree with Cynhia's post. I feel that the necessity of religion is not applicable to BNW because mishaps are taken care of my things such as soma and government control (such as when John was in the hospital with his mother). Religion is a comfort as DKJ said, and religion comforts one for the afterlife. In both Gattaca and BNW, the afterlife is a different concept than in our world. Religion is necessary in our world to makeup for the control Gattaca and BNW exhibit. Control can be compared to religion in this sense because religion is control for humans in our world, but the government takes up this responsibility in BNW, and genetics takes it up in Gattaca. I think this is the major conclusion to be reached about religion.
..here are my thoughts
These few pagers where the best part of the book in my opinion. The pages have meat and we see into the reasoning behind their society. Mustapha Mond i think became a controller because, he saw how nessesary it was to continue the world he was in. Instead of running from it he chose to lead it and understand it. i really liked the part about religion. Mr. Mond and the savage have two different views on religion and its great to see both sides. These chapters got me thinking about my religous~ views. it was nice. will post more later,....
Here are some things i found in these pages...
page 232 " But as time goes on. the, as all men, will find that independence was not made for man-that it is an unnatural state-will do for a while, but not carry us on safely to the end.."
just before this he is saying how the youth believe in themselfs only...
Mond is supporting the idea behind a society where no one belongs to themself.
Also in these pages i found that the "Savage" represents more of our views and Mond represents the brave new world idea.
-Why would huxley still refer to him as savage and not John in these pages?
My view on religion after reading this is..i don't believe in a "god" but i will go to church becuase, the church teaches good values etc. The church is also a place where i feel like a part of something and that comforts me.
I disagree with what Haya said
"Control can be compared to religion in this sense because religion is control for humans in our world, but the government takes up this responsibility in BNW"
religion is not control for humans in our world.
Religion only controls you if you are weak and usless and need to feel something besides your own fear and saddness for life.
In brave new world they are conditioned to do everything they do, they have no choice and Soma is there controler not the government.
The government just keeps the gears turning.
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